The Power of Testing! – All Things PPC Podcast Ep8
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The Power of Testing! – All Things PPC Podcast Ep8
Testing in Digital Marketing: The Secret Weapon to Campaign Success
The world of digital marketing can feel like a whirlwind. You’re constantly bombarded with new tactics, platforms, and trends. But amidst all the noise, one principle remains constant: testing is king.
Why? Because the beauty of digital marketing lies in its measurability. Unlike traditional marketing channels, you can precisely track the performance of your campaigns, down to the tiniest detail. This opens a treasure trove of opportunity for continuous improvement.
The All Things PPC Podcast: Testing Your Way to the Top
In our latest episode, Chris Stott and Dan Trotter, the co-founders of PPC Geeks, delve into the world of testing in digital marketing. They answer all your burning questions, including:
- What is testing in digital marketing?
- Why are tests important?
- How do you conduct effective tests?
- What elements of your campaigns should you test?
The Power of Testing: Unlocking Hidden Potential
Testing isn’t just about tweaking a few headlines or ad copy. It’s a systematic approach to identifying what works and what doesn’t in your digital marketing strategy. By running controlled experiments, you can gain valuable insights into:
- Audience preferences: What kind of messaging resonates best with your target audience?
- Campaign optimization: Are your landing pages converting visitors into leads or sales?
- Platform performance: Which platforms are delivering the best results for your budget?
- Creative effectiveness: What kind of visuals and calls to action grab attention and drive engagement?
Testing Done Right: A Recipe for Success
Not all tests are created equal. Here are some key ingredients for setting up effective tests:
- Clearly defined goals: What are you hoping to achieve with your test?
- Isolated variables: Focus to test one element at a time to isolate the true impact.
- Statistical significance: Ensure your sample size is large enough to draw reliable conclusions.
- Data-driven decisions: Let the data guide your optimization efforts, not guesswork.
Don’t Be Afraid to Experiment!
The best part about tests in digital marketing? It’s a continuous process. As you learn and iterate, your campaigns become more effective over time. So, don’t be afraid to experiment! Embrace a culture of testing within your organization and watch your digital marketing efforts soar.
Ready to take your marketing to the next level?
- Tune in to the latest episode of the All Things PPC Podcast for a deep dive into test strategies.
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Let’s unlock the true potential of your digital marketing efforts together!
Timestamps
- 00:00 – Introduction: Dan and Chris introduce the episode and discuss the importance of advertising spend, with examples ranging from £1,000 a month to £1,000 an hour.
- 05:30 – Big Changes for Big Results: Dan mentions that while small tests are useful, bigger changes are sometimes needed to see significant results.
- 08:15 – Strategic Thinking: Chris talks about the importance of stepping back to consider overall strategy and business objectives rather than focusing solely on metrics.
- 12:45 – Testing Strategy: Discussions on what to test, why to test, and starting with small tests to gather preliminary data.
- 18:00 – Testing Limitations: Covering constraints like low budget or insufficient data that can limit the scope of testing.
- 22:10 – Collaborative Approach: The potential benefits of working with partners to share the workload and generate fresh ideas.
- 30:00 – Metrics to Focus On: Chris highlights the importance of conversions per impression over clicks, contrary to Google’s focus on clicks for revenue.
- 35:45 – Buyer Journey and Conversion Tracking: Discussion on understanding the full buyer journey and the importance of accurate conversion tracking.
- 45:00 – A/B Testing Basics: Explanation of A/B testing elements, including splitting traffic randomly and ensuring statistical significance.
- 50:30 – Digital Ad Strategy Changes: How Google’s AI now automates much of the ad testing, compiling different headlines and descriptions.
- 55:00 – Common Mistakes in Testing: Dan and Chris discuss common pitfalls in testing, such as testing too many elements simultaneously and testing bias.
Notable Quotes
- Dan on Big Changes: “Significant changes can be necessary for achieving major results.”
- Chris on Strategic Thinking: “It’s crucial to step back and consider the overall strategy and business objectives rather than solely focusing on the metrics.”
- Dan on Testing Strategy: “Start with small tests to understand what to test and why, and then move on to bigger tests for larger data sets.”
- Chris on Metrics: “Conversions per impression are far more critical than just focusing on clicks, which Google prioritizes for their revenue.”
- Dan on Digital Marketing Advantage: “Digital marketing provides data for precise testing and tracking, helping marketers know which efforts are effective.”
- Chris on Buyer Journey: “Understanding the complete buyer journey and motivations is key to measuring and optimizing marketing effectiveness.”
- Dan on A/B Testing: “Proper A/B testing involves running two (or more) variants simultaneously and requires significant data and duration to avoid false positives.”
Do small tests, they’re hugely valuable. But also if you want big results, then sometimes you do just have to make big changes.
Hello. I am here today with Dan, who is the co founder here at PPC Geeks. How are you doing?
Hi, Chris. I’m very well, thank you. Very well. How are you?
I’m good, thank you. So today I thought Dan would be the perfect person to talk about testing because Dan definitely has a great background in testing. Over two decades now. We’re revealing our ages there a bit.
Yeah.
So testing is one of the key tenants of digital marketing and doing it properly. So we just thought that would be a great way to explore both at a high level conceptually what testing means and why it’s so important, and maybe some of the ideas of the kind of things people should be testing and what they should look out for. So to that end, what does testing mean to you in a digital ads context? What’s it all about?
Okay, thanks, Chris. Well, the whole idea and the basis around testing for me is the opportunity to be continually getting better. Obviously, one thing that can happen with any kind of marketing really is kind of just getting stuck in the rut and just the same things happen day in, day out. Whereas testing gives you opportunity to be able to expand and just continually getting better.
Yeah, exactly. And the beauty of digital marketing is that you can test and measure what’s going on. So there’s this old saying in the old school marketing, half of my marketing works, but I don’t know which half. And it was when it was all billboards and adverts and things like that. Yeah, I mean, you could test the newspapers with direct response and having different response addresses and codes back in the day when you have mail order and stuff. But that is the beauty of digital marketing is that you do get that data to test on. So what’s important when it comes to testing and why do we do it? Things like making sure our money’s going in the right place, but also we need to be continually improving. Why do we test for our clients? And why should everyone be testing no matter the size of their account?
Right, Good question there, Chris. I would say the main reason to be testing is obviously to be getting better. You want to look at it as almost like a market marginal gains kind of win. So you get a compounding effect over the days, the weeks, the months, the years. Obviously. Google Ads, for instance, has changed a lot over the past two, three years, or getting on for 20 years that we’ve been around it. And over that time There used to be a lot more manual testing that we used to have to do on just a standard day to day basis. Now that you know their algorithms and a machine learning and AI and does handle quite a lot of certain bits of testing. But the main, the main reason you want to do testing is to be able to continually get better. It really is, really is kind of that simple. And there’s lots of different aspects that you can test in and around. So everything from budgets through to where you’re sending people, how you finding people all the way from like the keyword to the ad group to the campaign kind of level, moving into image assets, the actual text that you’ve got in your adverts. There is so many different things to test and be continually getting better at. So one way I try to describe it is say every month you’re running 10 different little tests on different things. Each one of them might only have a marginal gain of say a 0.5% increase in say conversions or conversion rate or your average order value. Now that in isolation by itself over that one month, you know, it’s, it’s, it could be best described as like a little blip, you know, you’re not really going to notice it. But when you compounding those and you continually making more and more improvements each month off the back of the better, the better results then you know, over the six month, the 12 month, the 18 month period, then you’re really starting to get much larger gains, if you will.
I always think there’s. Yeah, I always think there’s, I mean there’s a lot that you can do when you managing digital marketing campaigns. But I always think it comes down to two key elements. One is it’s not a set and forget. So there’s so much changes with competitors and new services that come along and within a business, you know, if products go out of stock and stuff like that. So there’s that constant chipping away maintenance. It’s almost like a muscle. If you don’t use it, it will atrophy, it’ll work a bit for a short while and then it won’t work. And so you got to keep working at it. That’s the maintenance side. But then every business wants to get better, every business wants to grow and just to stay afloat you have to be testing the new things because digital marketing moves so fast. So testing is a key pillar of, of what we do and anyone doing digital marketing should do. Because you can’t just maintain things and set and forget them. You do need to be constantly improving. So when it comes to testing, what kind of think before you even start saying, what am I going to test? Or what do we need ready for testing? What kind of things do you need to have in place no matter what you’re doing? What do you need to have ready to start thinking about your tests?
Well, without a shadow of a doubt, you need tracking. You’re going to know, you need to know what your budgets are. Without the basic principles, then, you know, you set yourself up to fail.
And so many people don’t have that tracking in place, do they?
Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, obviously one of the things that we do for potential clients is doing audit, as obviously you’ll know and probably the audience will know. And yeah, we still find tracking issues on audits that we’re doing this week. Yeah, it is a very prevalent problem. And also there’s been a lot of changes in tracking and moving forward throughout the rest of the year, you know, with more and more kind of a cookulous world, tracking is just going to become even more of an issue.
Yeah, and the key thing is with the tracking, obviously you want to track what you’re testing, but you need to have been tracking to have data to reference again. So. Because otherwise, if you don’t know what your conversion rate is, for example, and then you start testing, what are you benchmarking against? You always need that benchmark. The other thing is budgets, of course. So it’s a key thing with budgets to understand how much you want to allocate towards testing. Because we always say this thing, you can’t make an omelet without breaking some eggs. And it’s the same with digital marketing. You want to allocate some sort of budget to see what works and what doesn’t. And testing doesn’t always work, it’s always a reality. Um, what kind of rule of thumb would you recommend? Obviously it’s client specific, but for how much budget to allocate to testing?
Well, that is a very good question, Chris. And I’d say there’s also different elements within tracking. So yeah, 100% have a. Sorry, have a specific budget just for testing. Wild things or new things maybe so maybe new platforms. But there’s also just a lot of testing that you can do, you know, that doesn’t necessarily require a different type of budget, you know, different copy, different. Yeah, different assets, et cetera. But yeah, would be very, very business specific and had to put a specific number on what a budget should be outside of the normal average every day. One thing I’ll just heavily suggest on that and which we obviously do for our clients. But for somebody else who maybe is new to this would be to very much do your homework, do your research, make sure you’ve got your customer Personas nailed down. Make sure you know where the eyes of your customers are. You know by all means that you go and spend millions of pounds advertising on some platform where you know your clients just aren’t within that buying cycle. So yeah, as long as you, it’s, it’s, it’s really just the case. Doing your homework, making the best guesses, having your tracking set up in place, you know what good looks like, you set KPIs and then you can, then you can run it forwards, start small, work up from there would be my general rule of thumb.
I mean it’s a great point. I often forget actually is that a lot of what you can test you don’t have to spend extra budget on. Yeah, I mean, I mean a rough rule of thumb for a reasonable size of account depending on the client’s goals and aspirations to grow would be maybe 10, 15%, wouldn’t it? If it was budget wise and stuff. But if you’re spending that amount of money, you want it to work but it, you kind of, you’re okay if 10% of your budget doesn’t work because it’s trying to make this extra money. But I think that’s a good point to come on to the different, let’s look into the different types of testing you can do with digital advertising and it’d be worth saying which ones cost money and which don’t. So we’ve got a few ideas of things that we normally do testing on. So something that people may or may not have heard of. I feel like this is something a lot of people have heard of but don’t actually understand how it works. And I know it’s something you’ve got a lot of experience with. So what, what’s a B testing? When do you use it and how’s a simple way to set it up?
Yeah, good question. Okay, so it’s, it can be, I can expand out on this a long way but I’ll try and keep it as succinct as possible. So a B testing is in theory is where you have two or at least two different variants of something which you then split in traffic to in a randomized pattern to through tracking and having kind of, you know, your conversion data and to see which one converts higher rates. Or it could be you could run a test for many different, different things will tend to obviously be very specific to the outcomes because, you know, we’re a performance agency, aren’t we? Performance marketing agency. So. But yeah, in, in its, in its very essence, AB testing is where you run in parallel two different copies of something and eventually over a period of time or, you know, when it gets significantly significant, statistically significant numbers, then one will come out as a winner on that. You don’t want to, you want to make sure it’s significant with regards to how many people have kind of viewed the page. So say if you only got a page where 100 people a month see it, you’re going to want to run that test for a long, long time because you need to be able to get enough data, otherwise you get what’s called false positives. So say you say you’ve got 100 people to the page, that’s only 50 to each. If you did a 50, 50 split and say two conversions on version A, well, that would make that look like an enormous winner. When actually you just don’t have enough traffic to both pages. So we run tests for kind of clients that have done in the past where some clients with lots and lots of traffic, we can run them in a month, but others where it’s actually over maybe four or five months, but also spread across many different campaigns running the same test. Because then you can algomate or. Yeah, so you can basically pull the information together to then find a statistical winner. Yeah. Does that answer? I can keep going. But yeah, yeah, there’s two.
I mean, there’s, there’s different things. You can. The concept of a B testing is, is just that, isn’t it? You’ve got two versions of something and you are seeing which of those two versions gets you better results. Which in our world is making money, which is, in our world is conversions. But then there’s. I guess we could talk about the different kinds of things within a digital campaign. You can test so you can. The classic one is a landing page. So you’ve got two variants of a landing page. The old joke used to be people are just changing the colors of buttons on one page. It’s an orange button, one page, it’s a blue button. That does. If you’ve got enough traffic, that does make a difference. Or it could be the images, or it could be where you position testimonials, but you’ve got two essentially the same versions of things. You’re just putting, you’re changing one element on each and seeing with enough traffic which one garners you more conversions or whatever action you are tracking. But then before that, I mean, I think that’s the classic example people think about. And it’s certainly when we speak to clients or potential clients, that’s the kind of thing they want to do. But there’s a lot you can do before people even get to your website, isn’t there, with digital ads, and that’s doing different variants of ad copy. But there’s some nuances to how you might strategically set that up. So can you tell us about how you might test different elements, descriptions, headlines and things like that, and why you would do it in that way?
Well, absolutely. Well, unfortunately, I’m gonna have to kind of just cast our minds back a few years. So it used to be a very manual process where you’d have two complete different sets of kind of ad copy with different headlines, different descriptions, and they’d be fixed. Google, over the past 12, 18 months or so, has been very much reworking that because it was only people who had that deeper level of knowledge, like ourselves, that could really take advantage of it. Whereas a lot of clients that Google have, you know, 99% of the businesses in the UK will never turn over a million pounds. So a lot of the smaller ones would just go in there, set something up, and they just always have the same. So what Google now has ads which, when you create in them, have many more, many more fields for the different types of, let’s say, you know, headlines and then different lines of descriptions. And then Google with its own AI, will kind of test those and match those up to find and to flag winners. Obviously, you know, I’m a bit of the Neanderthal at times. I like how we used to be able to do it because we had so much more control. But, you know, obviously part of the digital future is very much giving over control to, you know, to Google and to the different platforms. So, yeah, so it’s changed over the years, but yeah, many, many different, different, different things you can test. There’s also different ad extensions that you can try and test as well. So make sure you’re always, always testing those. And over periods, we used to have it set up on a, on a monthly to go in and check for clients where we’d look at all the different site links, we’d see which ones are working well, which ones aren’t, and then we would remove some of the ones that aren’t working so well and create new ones off the back of the ones that have won in, you know, over the previous month or Previous periods. Again, it all just comes into that whole cycle of just continually improving and trying to capitalize on them. The compounding effect.
Yeah. And I think a key mistake that we see that people make is testing too many things. Well, there’s two, actually. There’s testing too many things, and I don’t know what the technical term is, but testing bias. And I’ll explain that in a minute. So testing too many things is if someone was managing it manually or they were reviewing an account, they might say there’s this version of ad copy and that version, but everything about that ad copy is different. So the headline, the description, the second headline, and then they’re comparing that with one that’s completely different. And then they run a test and go, okay, that one’s one, and then they do another one and they’re doing it all completely different. Whereas the really good testing only tests one element. You might even test just one word in the copy. Because it’s like when you’re working out or doing a diet, if you, if you change too many things at once, you don’t know what’s making the difference. This is a big problem in, in science. And if you suddenly start, start taking six supplements and you go, I feel a bit better. It’s like, which of the supplements, if you’re taking six and you weren’t taking any before, have actually made the difference. And that’s the scientific method that we try and apply now when it comes to this bias to what works. What was always a problem and still is with the AI, although it’s a bit more of a black box, is if Google starts seeing in Google Ads, and same in Metaverse, if one of the variants of whatever you’re testing starts to win, then it will start allocating more budget during the test to that because it goes, hey, this is a winner. But back to your point of having a fair test, really. You want 50% of the traffic to go to one, 50% to the other, otherwise you’re not, not ever going to know. And what people do is they might end the test too early because. And start biasing to one that’s just starting to tip a certain way without running it through its, its full cycle. So that’s definitely a mistake that we’ve seen. Seen quite often.
I couldn’t agree with you more, like Chris. Yeah, and also, obviously, you know, we’re experts in this field. There’s only so much data, even in the olden days, that you could kind of get out of Google. So what we would do at the nuts and bolts level is, you know, maybe we’d been running a test over say, you know, 50 different ad groups and four different campaigns, and we’ve got all this data, you know, maybe let’s just say 10,000 different kind of clicks. But once we’d amalgamated it all up across the different ad copy variants, we would always add an extra column and that was for conversions per impression, which you couldn’t get out. And an actual kind of value per impression, again, kind of comes back to what you’re saying there about focusing on the right thing. Google obviously wants to make a lot of money, so it’s happy to keep, you know, as you’re saying, putting that swingometer into what is essentially gaining the most clicks, not necessarily gaining, you know, what is a valuable action for the businesses that we serve across the country in the world.
Can we just double click on that conversions per impression? Because that’s a key element of. If you could just explain it maybe to a bit more of a lay audience what we mean by that and the fact that it’s going. It’s not just whether people click on ads, it’s not just whether people click on the landing page. But we are very much about click to close here, aren’t we? So could you just walk us through an example of why that’s so important?
Yeah, by all means. Obviously what we start across our entire suite of clients. So I guess without going into too much detail, but first of all, you have impressions at the very top and it’s going to go like a funnel or like a V shape really. So you have all the impressions, you don’t pay for those if you’re on a cost per click. And then you have people who’ve clicked on your ads and you pay for those impressions.
That eyeballs people who’ve seen the ad at that point.
Yeah.
They’Ve driven past the billboard, but they haven’t gone, you know, gone clicked on whatever’s there.
Yeah, I’m gonna file a fax out and written it down. Yeah, so exactly. So, yeah, just impressions. So you’ve, your van’s at least been served on, say Google might not been in first position, could have been, you know, all the way at the bottom. You know, it was, it was available to be seen. Then you’ve got clicks. So people have actually clicked into your site. Now that means you’ve been, you’ve been then charged for that click. Obviously I’m not going to go into details about how you charge for the click, but that in itself is worth an Hour call. So you’ve been charged now then people will interact with the site, some will browse, you’ll have a certain percentage which will then do a meaningful action. And for most of our clients that’s either a lead that’s been generated. So filled out a form, made a call offer. Obviously our e commerce clients generally just, just a sale, you know, someone’s actually purchased something, cash has been transacted. So out of all of that, what Google is really most interested in is just the clicks because that generates them the money. Yes, they’re not overly bothered about the impressions, they just want the clicks. And that’s why one of your elements for your quality score is click through rate. They want to be sure if they’re serving your ads, you’re going to be getting a click. Everything in Google’s interest is to, is to get more clicks. So as you, as you know, as you mentioned, it skews over currently to just getting clicks now because what we do for our clients is we generate them better returns for investments than we’re more interested almost at the bottom of that, bottom of that V shape which is the money and the kind of cash transacted. So to lay on its side slightly, what we were looking at is just just one other column as we added and we added others. But was how much, how much money was generated at the bottom of the V for how many impressions. So you know, if you’ve got, if you were served an impression, then was that the best metric for you? And we found, you know, over time, over six months, 12 month periods, optimizing two that has been one of the key factors was one of the areas to really excel growth for clients.
Yeah. And it’s something we still do. It’s as you rightly say, Google makes enough money and that’s all they care about. That’s all account managers care about. But it’s what’s happening at the very beginning and what the influences the very end that that’s true digital marketing. And we can take that a step further. So to give an example from one of the industries where we’ve worked in, we’ve got a client who are like we buy any car but they’re not. And the key thing there is under, as you said earlier, understanding your audience and what their motivations are now in terms of generating leads so that they want value, what they call valuation leads. They want people to get a value for their vehicle. That is a lead. Okay, well they don’t make any money just by people putting their number plate in and then them telling how much the vehicle is worth, the way they actually make money. And that’s a lead at that point, isn’t it? They put, yeah, you know, you want to sell your vehicle, you put your registration in, they say this is worth £6,000. And you, that’s a lead to that. But what makes the money goes even further than that. And that is what’s the advert they saw and the keyword they used that then made them get evaluation and then critically actually sell their car to them. And that when we did this kind of analysis and continue to do it, had a very different testing regime and metric to just getting leads. And that is about understanding the motivations and the buyer behavior of the people who work with you. So getting leads is very different to getting the back end conversion. And we found that actually some of the costs on the front end, if you’d only focused on Google’s metric, you know, you might have said, oh, these costs per click are too high. Or these costs per conversion, that’s too high. But when you look at cost per acquisition, in their case acquiring a vehicle, you have to look all the way across the chain to understand what works and what doesn’t. And this is an ex. The reason I’m reminded of it is it’s an extreme example of where what looked good if you were just one of those vanity metrics, how many impressions can we get or how many even leads can we get versus how many. How much business are we doing? Very different. And that’s why testing happens all the way along the chain. But it’s important to look at the context across the whole chain.
Absolutely. And again, it all comes down to accurate conversion tracking. If you don’t have accurate conversion tracking and you don’t know your numbers, then yeah, it’s just a real recipe for disaster. Reminds me of the really large audio seller, there are clients and the big expensive kind of Bose headphones and stuff. Turnover, huge numbers, weren’t they? But actually it was, you know, it was, it was us, it was yourself who kind of dug into the details on that to work out that actually, although it was adding so much to turnover for them, you know, the profitability on each item was really, really low. So again, being able to add that extra layer of value to the clients because they just weren’t aware of it from their side.
So it’s about going the devil’s in the detail, isn’t it? It’s about going, going that extra mile. Okay, so I think a good way to sum up about why we believe always be testing is a key thing to be doing is that there’s certain tips and tricks that we’d like people to take away or things to understand. So I’ve already alluded to not testing too many things at once. That’s definitely an area. If you’re testing too many things along the chain, you’re not going to know what works and therefore you’re just in a muddle of data.
We’ll just quickly show. Jump in there if you will. So, yeah, the whole reason to have a test is because you’re trying to, you’re trying to, you’re trying to do something. So just first of all, know what you tested and why you test in it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because otherwise. Oh, well, we’ll just. Yeah, we’ll change the color of the button to blue. But why. So, yes, it makes you, you definitely know what you’re testing and why. So. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree with that.
And then another thing is that because, I mean, you can be spending. Some people will be spending £1,000amonth on ads, some people will be spending £1,000 an hour on ads and more. What would you say about needing to have to. If you want to get a big result, you have to make big changes, don’t you? What would you say about that?
Yeah, we kind of flies a little bit in the face of what we just previously said. So I don’t want to contradict it too badly. But first of all, obviously, don’t test too many things. Make sure you know what you’re testing and why and do small tests. They’re hugely valuable. But also, if you want big results, then sometimes you do just have to make big changes. Okay, you know, every now and then try and rewrite the book. You know, if you were doing it all today from scratch, what would it look like? And if that’s different from what you currently got and you honestly believe that this new test could work for once you’ve done your research and you know, you know, your customers, et cetera, then, then, yeah, test it, trial it, see if it works. Because if you want big results, sometimes you just need to put your big boy pants on and do some big tests.
Yeah, it’s a good point. It might seem paradoxical, but that’s why you’ve got to, you’ve got to take a step back from just doing the clicking about in Google Ads or meta or whatever and actually say, what’s the strategy here? What’s the business objectives? What are we trying to achieve? And that’s that’s the key differentiator between just, you know, an in house team or a lower level agency just clicking about and trying to improve vanity metrics versus strategically looking at the whole piece. I guess I think the final thing to say is that just because we’ve got this always be testing mentality, which is true, and we’re always doing that, it doesn’t mean that you should Everything is to be tested all the time. You should be always testing something. But at some points things just aren’t testable. The budget’s too low. The key there’s too many different products and the keywords are too, there’s too many variants. They’re not getting enough impressions. So really that’s about focusing in on the right things and testing the right things within the resources and budgets you have. Or, you know, working with a partner who can integrate with you and take some of that burden off you and suggest some ideas and always having that fresh approach. What we’ve wanted to cover today is to have the principles of testing and why we do it. We could easily do an episode on every single one of these elements and more, but I think that’s a great overview. So thanks for your time today and your expertise and we’ll see you on another podcast soon.
Thank you very much. Take care.
